A conversation with Petras Surna about his experience in the program.

Transcript Below:


Alzay Calhoun: I'm here with Petras Surna, who has just completed the coaching program. Petras, please get started by telling us who you are and, what you do, what you're focused on.

Petras Surna: I'm a software developer. I specialize in internet and I've been running a business for 20 years, almost 20 years, 19 years building websites and focusing on technical aspects of them. I'm not a marketer, and when software gets custom, complex, integrated, that's me.

Alzay Calhoun: Petras, you've completed the program. Let's start with what you enjoyed most about your experience in the program.

Petras Surna: When I started this program, I was lost, big time. My business, I had two employees for 10 years and it seemed like we were requiring less work. I found them both jobs and then I just took on all their work. I went from this manager to running all trailing maintenance work. It was extremely stressful. I thought my entire life was falling apart. I really did. It was the lowest point of my existence. I didn't know what to do. But I didn't even know what productized service was. I didn't really know why I was signing up to you.

Petras Surna: I think there was a question I asked you at one point. I said, "What do you specialize in? What problem do you solve?" You said, "Oh, well I help people set up a productized consulting service." I said, "Oh yeah, that's right. That's why I did this." But actually I did it out of desperation, to be honest. I was just looking for something to get me out of this, low place, Alzay. Because when things work for 20 years, you don't understand why they stopped working. I've thought about that. I've talked to people and they said, "Man, in the 2000s, you were in demand. Now there's a lot of competitors. People specializing, people marketing, you didn't need to do that. You need to do that now. Sorry." I think that's what happened.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah. Yeah. Clearly, there are a number of layers there, you know, in that conversation. But there are certainly, there are a lot of technology tools out there that make it at least appear that technology is manageable. I can do it myself, hook it up myself. A lot of drag and drop type software programs out there. For a technology expert, like yourself, your narrative has to change, your story has to change, your conversation has to change because there are a lot of tools out there that make it seem easy. That's a bait for the client, isn't it? Isn't it a bait? I can do it myself until it all blows up, and then people need help.

Alzay Calhoun: Part of what you're describing, your situation was updating your thought process, your messaging, your basic approach to the market because it had changed, right? Over 20 years, things change, right? But then you're in this program, right? You've had the experience, and I want to make sure you answer the question. What did you enjoy most? You've had it. That's why you got started. The program did some things for you. What strikes you as the thing you enjoyed the most?

Petras Surna: Enjoy or got from the program?

Alzay Calhoun: Let's go with enjoy. Let's go with enjoy.

Petras Surna: Okay, enjoy. I enjoyed the structure. There was a structure, because I've done other programs where there is no structure. A structure is, "Here's Module 1. Read it. Do this. You will be assessed, and then you can ask questions via email and coming on the group call." That's a structure that, as you know, it's milestones that lead you from the start to the end without you straying off course. I enjoyed the structure the most, and your clear responsiveness and client compassion. Is that a word?

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah.

Petras Surna: Yeah, client compassion. I enjoyed that. I've raved to everyone about you and this course.

Alzay Calhoun: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Now let's reverse. What did you enjoy least about your time in the program?

Petras Surna: Module 6.

Alzay Calhoun: What about it was the most uncomfortable?

Petras Surna: I'm still stuck in implementing it. I feel I need a content piece for my first, second, third connection point in LinkedIn. I'm thinking, "Do I just write something?" I have this semi-grandiose idea of video with diagrams, like what you do in your videos, and this is ridiculous. I can't find anywhere to film the way you film because I can't find anywhere with decent lighting. It's really stupid. I'm still stuck on getting Module 6 happening. I'll tell you what I think would have been a good idea.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay.

Petras Surna: I think the weekly coaching is good, but I reckon at the end you should change it to two weeks or even three weeks. I reckon you should aim to get to Module 6 with two meetings left, and then have a big gap for the next two, because it's too much. I'll get there, and I'm going to implement it, but that would be my main feedback. The other stuff's all good. I can't critique it much at all.

Alzay Calhoun: Let's stay there for a minute. I want to acknowledge how dense Module 6 is. We've discussed this before in our private conversations. Module 6 is dense because Module 6 is complete. By the way, Module 6 is the entire LinkedIn approach. I am personally frustrated with how people describe LinkedIn as if it's easy, and you can just update your profile and away you go. If only it was that straightforward.

Alzay Calhoun: There are some details you got to be aware of, at least, to do it the way you're supposed to do it, to do it in a way that's fair to you and fair to those you might reach out to. You got this really big dense thing that is inside Module 6, and I realized that it can slow people down, just the way it's currently structured. That's one of the things that we are actively working to make more efficient, how to look at that another way, an even better way so that people don't feel like they hit a wall, like what you're describing. Some of that stuff, Petras, we can solve for after we have this conversation. Some of that stuff we can tease out.

Alzay Calhoun: But you said something else in that response. I want to make sure I at least put a little note on. I'm flattered at the fact that you are aiming to make videos in the way that I do in Coveted Consultant. Bad lighting or challenging lighting is just the first of many challenges that I had to figure out on this end to make the videos simply useful to the audience. It's a challenge. It's a real challenge.

Alzay Calhoun: We go back to the fundamental of "simple is better than complex". I would recommend you use the very best you have to communicate the very best you can. Let that be a Version One, and then do Version Two, Three, Four, Five as you iterate. But trying to do what you've seen from Coveted Consultant is hard. It's harder than it looks.

Petras Surna: It's pretty polished what you do. Obviously you've learned stuff over the years.

Alzay Calhoun: Right. Right.

Petras Surna: I can see it, because I make videos on YouTube, just for hiking videos, fishing videos. I do that. I know about videos, but yours look polished.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It's taken a while to get. I'm very serious. You can even see it. I leave the old videos on the channel for a reason, so people can see that we didn't just kind of wake up one day and make this polished video. We've taken some real iterations, and some of them were a little ugly, but they were the version at the time to move where we are. Simple is better than complex. Simple is better than complex and done is better than perfect.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay, sir. All right, sir. Then my next question is, what's the number one thing you took away from the experience? When you look back at the entire experience, your biggest takeaway is?

Petras Surna: Number one, I was always confused about what people buy. They buy solutions to problems. That is self evident to me now. That's self evident and that's point one.

Petras Surna: Point two, you must have milestones. I never had them up and I was running five, six businesses. I don't know how many I was running. I haven't created milestones for everything I do. That is the biggest thing and I've already been applying that to other people I'm working with who have got different products. I'm involved with these businesses consulting. I'm saying, "Why don't we change it to this?" I'm turning into a coach, Alzay.

Alzay Calhoun: Hey, hey. Now unpack that please a bit, Petras, because I know you've heard this idea of people buy solutions to problems. Like, you had heard that before you ran across any content of mine, right?

Petras Surna: Probably, but I heard it along with many other theories intermixed and it was just an idea in a sea of ideas. It wasn't unpacked or explored. It was just one of these things you hear. You don't know which life raft to hold on to in the ocean, bit of wood drifting by.

Alzay Calhoun: Got it, got it.

Petras Surna: There's millions of these. Should I be doing that? He doesn't unpack anything though. That's why.

Alzay Calhoun: Got you. Got you. Got you. Now this idea of milestones, I imagine you've heard that before, break the service into pieces, however someone may say it or how the idea may or may have been presented. What's different about that idea now in your business? Why do you see it differently now?

Petras Surna: Firstly, because I had to focus on what I was best at. You forced me to focus on what I was best at. I said, "All right. Well I reckon it's e-commerce integration, because I seemed to be doing a lot of it. It's really hard. I'm pretty good at it." I thought it was too narrow, way too narrow. I thought, "This is something you add onto an e-commerce website. It isn't a service in and of itself, even though I'm being employed to do it all over the place." My mind would never have looked for milestones because it would never have focused on a problem because I thought I had to be doing everything. I just never would have got there because I just didn't know where to focus.

Petras Surna: Once you led, took me down, as I said, this process, you said, "Focus on this one problem," and then the milestones came out and Module 3 was ding, I see the matrix. My God, I see my business, I see everyone's business. I all of a sudden saw reality literally differently, but I had to be led down this uncomfortable path. Even though I had seen these comments a million times. Everyone's read the E-Myth, but it doesn't get you very far.

Alzay Calhoun: Well, okay. You just said, "I had to be led down this uncomfortable path." Please describe the discomfort. What was uncomfortable about it as you were going through?

Petras Surna: E-commerce is too narrow a field to focus on.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay.

Petras Surna: This will never work.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay.

Petras Surna: Look, to some degree, let's take an analogy of something that wouldn't perhaps never work. I focus on shining blue shoes that are made of Colombian leather for women between 75 and 80. Could you get a business out of that? At some point if things do get too narrow, I just thought it was too narrow. But when created the steps, the milestones, I thought, "This is huge, this field, I haven't even developed my consulting practice properly around this yet." Module 3 was the big one.

Alzay Calhoun: There is something to admitting where you're best and. I use the word "admit" on purpose because sometimes you have to just kind settle in, "You know what? I really am good at that. I am. I'm actually really good. Me and my company together, we're really good at doing this work right here." From that, some other very powerful things can be added on to it. But it's amazing how we'll talk ourselves out of that. It's too big, it's too small, it's too fat, it's too skinny, it cost too much, it costs too little, they won't understand it, they won't buy it. Man, the things that we do mentally to talk ourselves out of that is amazing.

Petras Surna: That's correct. Yep.

Alzay Calhoun: This process helps us admit things one step at a time. Is this true? Okay, good. Is that true? Is that true? Is that true? Then what you find at the end, there's a big box of truth, right? All the right things, so to speak. It's a process, right? If only you could just sit down and just ding, and it all snap into place.

Petras Surna: You have forced through it. You have to be forced through that funnel or whatever it is that you go through in this course. You will not arrive at this place naturally.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah. Yeah.

Petras Surna: Well, I won't. I've never seen anyone do it.

Alzay Calhoun: Can you articulate why? Why would you imagine, at least for yourself, that it will be difficult to get to this conclusion on your own?

Petras Surna: I don't know. Why? Probably because there's too many other ways I get work, that to isolate one and say, "This is the one I'm going to pick," just doesn't seem necessary.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay.

Petras Surna: Therefore, why would you carry it out with such vigor? In fact, this is a problem I face right now. I've done this course, I'm still getting other types of work. How extreme do I go here? Do I go, "I am not doing anything unless it's e-commerce integration. If I haven't got work, I'll just LinkedIn my mind out. I'll just hit it as hard as anything and we don't do anything else. I don't care if I have to pay the bills next month"?

Petras Surna: That's what Arnold Schwarzenegger said. He said, "Don't have a Plan B if you want to be successful." I don't know if I need to do that, but I'm thinking, "Should I?" I don't know.

Alzay Calhoun: Petras, we're having this conversation because these are the thoughts that people are having on the outside, so to speak, right? Very smart people, right? Like yourself, been doing, been doing their work, five years, 10 years, 20 years.

Alzay Calhoun: Experience isn't the issue. There's plenty of experience, but for some reason it isn't happening. The light bulb isn't clicking. It just not working, right? There's 100 thoughts that pick away at the best possibility and it's heavy. It's heavy. Okay.

Alzay Calhoun: You highlighted one thing I think that's important, which is this idea of, "If I specialize in this," are we saying, "I don't do anything else ever"? Are we saying, "It's this or bust"? Like you said, "Forget my bills and I just do the one thing"?

Alzay Calhoun: I think the more practical response, again for you and somebody else who is on the outside looking in here, is what we're saying is what you do first. We're saying there's a priority here. We're making sure that we're clear on the best thing. We are putting our best foot forward here, right? So, so the best thing you can get from us is this thing called e-Commerce Integration. Now if you're the problem around that, I'd love to solve that right now, immediately. Right now, initially. We can get going today, right? Powerful, right here. Okay.

Alzay Calhoun: "But Petras, our issue is a bit more expansive. It involves some other things." Okay, let's talk about that too. Let's talk about that second, third, fourth, let's see that in some level of priority. Not only does it help you organize yourself when you come into the conversation, let me listen for an e-Commerce Integration issue, and hear the other issue second, it also helps the client to prioritize their own thoughts, which issue is most important, secondly important, third, fourth, fifth, and then help helps you figure out what they're willing to pay for, because it falls in their priority. Does that make sense, Petras? If it doesn't, please, please push back.

Petras Surna: Yeah, that makes sense. But I'm getting all sorts of work from just building front end websites. It is what it is, and I'm getting so many e-Commerce Integration, but it takes away your time from getting these LinkedIn videos and that content.

Alzay Calhoun: Right. See, this is the reality of this people always talk about. Okay. Short idea here. What you're doing is you're transitioning your company, right? You spent eight weeks in the program, right? There's no magic here. You can't get it all right, get it all done in eight weeks. My gosh, if only.

Alzay Calhoun: There is, there is a time or a period of transition. You will transition your company more and more to the e-Commerce Integration work because it's what you do best and where you charge highest premium. Now that we have some sense of priority, if someone's asking for a one-off website for $200 (that's my number, not yours) you now know where that fits in your priority. You won't spend half a day on $200 services any anymore. You can just scrap that. It's easier to say no to that now because now you now you know why, what to say no to and why to say no to it. Yes, sir.

Petras Surna: The key thing I was talking to a mate of mine is who's a professional salesman who said, "Who's this Alzay Calhoun?". I've told him about the program all along. He said, "What's the lead thing?" I go, "Well it's all LinkedIn." I said, "Okay, let's work out how long to get a client." Right. That's really the key here. How, how long.

Petras Surna: If I can contact ... I don't know if I can do 10 hellos in an hour because I have to search these profiles trying to find something in common with people, which is hard, half of them don't say much. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Let's say I could do seven an hour, so that's 10 minutes. Then there's the welcome email that's pretty quick. Then there's a third followup email, and there's a fourth email. Let's say I have to spend 20 minutes per person, right. You said if you contact 100 people, you should expect five clients, correct? Roughly. It's just a rough, rough something.

Alzay Calhoun: That's fair. That's fair. Because remember, the contact is the beginning of the interaction. But go ahead, go ahead.

Petras Surna: Right. So that's one in 20. What's 20 times 20? That's 400 hundred minutes per client. 400 divided by 60, what's that? Five hours, six hours? Something. I don't know

Alzay Calhoun: About five, six hours. Yup.

Petras Surna: That is the thing I've always been looking for. If I do this for six hours, it will generate one of those. I'll stick this in the pipe, out comes this. If I had that, and I knew it worked, then I could abandon everything else, because I have certainty in this factory of marketing producing clients. I've got to get the first, say 30 or 40 of these LinkedIn things out so I can see if that works, because then you literally can walk away from everything.

Alzay Calhoun: That's right. That's right.

Petras Surna: That's the way I would say it. I'm right, you think.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay, yes sir. Yes, sir. Now what I'm nodding at to make sure that we're all speaking English here is what we're saying here is that fundamental clarity about what we offer, a core productized service, allows us to stack other really scalable leveraged things or thoughts on top of it.

Alzay Calhoun: Now that we know what the heck we're offering and we know what the heck we're focused on, we know the value it offers. All those good things are now clear. Okay, so now I can more mechanically measure the time I spend to get to get one of those and now I can then prioritize products that I don't like as much, so I can spend time on the right things, so I can get the clients I want.

Alzay Calhoun: All those things begin to stack on top of one another. But if you don't have the clarity here at the bottom, if you don't have the fundamental brick, then you can't do things two and things three.

Petras Surna: Correct.

Alzay Calhoun: You just guess and you throw spaghetti at the wall, so to speak. You just throw your energy everywhere. Right? So that is the manner of thinking, right?

Alzay Calhoun: Boy, there's more, I could add to that, but I'm going to pause.

Petras Surna: I totally get it. Yup.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah. This is the way, right? So now you can just think better. You could just think better.

Alzay Calhoun: Now here's a real dangerous idea ,while we're in this moment, then I will, I will move on. Dangerous idea. You can outsource the LinkedIn work. That's why it's dense.

Petras Surna: I will.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah, right up. At first you got to get your own comfort with it. I totally understand it and I recommend that.

Petras Surna: I want a conversion to happen, so I've seen enough problems so I can go, "If you can't find this in common, do this, do this, do this, do this."

Alzay Calhoun: There you go.

Petras Surna: I want to know how to do it so I can tell if someone's doing it properly.

Alzay Calhoun: That's right. That's right.

Petras Surna: But then after that, don't touch it ever again. That's the way it's meant to work. You work it out and then move off it. It's a process.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah. Right, right, right. In my business that's what has happened. I did it myself. I built a machine. My VA runs the machine from me and the machine runs, the machine works.

Alzay Calhoun: Gosh, that's the idea. Thank you, Petras, for saying that, because that is what you think about this in that order though. If you get it out of order, you'll just be running around the internet in a big circle.

Alzay Calhoun: I'm going to push to my next question. You may have already answered it. If you have, just tell me. When you think about your initial condition, situation coming into the program, "So there's a lot happening, I wasn't quite sure what to do next, kind of out of desperation is why I signed to sign up for the coaching program," what problem, now as you reflect on where you started, what big problem would you say that this program solved for you?

Petras Surna: Whether or not I should continue in business. I was looking for jobs. I actually applied for a few, out of desperation. Lucky I didn't get them. That's the problem it solved. I do not need to do that. It's not necessary. Probably not the answer you were looking for there.

Alzay Calhoun: No. These are real real choices. Petras, these are real choices. These are the things people tell me in confidence, "Hey man, I was looking at a couple of jobs. I could be CFO of this, or CMO of that, or Chief Technology Officer over here, or if someone offered me a deal over here. I'm thinking about taking it an leaving my business." If you want to do that, there's no judgment from me.

Alzay Calhoun: Take the opportunity that that makes the most sense for you, but to do it out of desperation is the issue, it's to jump ship or jump into someone else's ship, and and do that thing because you feel like you have to. Well, there's some other choices available and the program helps show you those choices. If you'll make a few, maybe it feels better. What I'm hearing from you is you made a few and it feels a little better. I think I want to stay where I am.

Alzay Calhoun: The life of a consultant. Every now and again, going back and going and getting a job sometimes sounds attractive, so I get it. I do understand. I do understand.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay. Petras, final formal question here. What would you tell someone else who's considering joining the coaching program? Now on the outside looking in, they have considered, they have seen content pieces. There's a thousand ideas in their head as well. What advice, recommendation, warning would you offer somebody who is considering?

Petras Surna: Well I mentioned it to a few people and they go, "Yeah, that all sounds really interesting," but I think you have to be, I don't know, maybe this is personal, I think you have to be ready for change, which means you might even have to be in a pretty desperate place yourself, but maybe that's just me. The people I talk to, one designer I work with, their business is a mess and production's a mess. But she's busy, so it doesn't matter. How is she going to go and create productized consulting? She doesn't have time. She doesn't have to.

Petras Surna: I suppose that's the thing with business coaches, people go to them when they're desperate. Well, I don't know. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but why would you go to see somebody to tell you how to run a business when your business is running, even if it's not the best business? Is that right?

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah. No, that's part of it. That's part of it, the nature. Here's what I would say just very quickly. Sometime people wait too late. I understand it's the same advice or scenario I offer my clients, "Solve for the problem. The more painful the problem, the more valuable the solution. People come to you when it hurts. That's when they come to you, when it hurts. Look for that pain and solve for that problem. Okay." My business follows a similar fundamental. It's true for all of us. I would argue that. People come to this company when it hurts.

Alzay Calhoun: One of the things that I personally get nervous about, sometime sad about is people come interact when it's just too late. They've spent all the money, they've used all the time, they are mentally and emotionally exhausted. Now what they're looking for is a magic answer. Now with what they think they needed at least is this one button, silver thing solution to make all my problems go away. Petras, as you've admitted.

Petras Surna: No, it's a lot of work you've got. It's a lot of work. I committed to it. I dropped off a bit on this Module 6, but I committed to it as much as I possibly could. That's what I mean. Unless you're willing to commit, it's a waste of time. It's a complete waste of time. You're not going to get a thing from it.

Alzay Calhoun: Thank you for saying that. Thank you.

Petras Surna: Maybe you'll get something, but I don't know. I don't think you ... You said, "This is going to be hard. You're going to have to be think differently." I went through that. I go, "Just keep going, keep going. What's this? What's that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Module 3, thinking through, thinking through." Bang! Hallelujah. Hallelujah.

Alzay Calhoun: That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Petras Surna: By the way, you did ask something strange that's maybe a reflection of American culture and definitely not Australian. Right at the beginning you said, "Do you want to spend more time at church?" Are you religious?

Alzay Calhoun: I am. I am. I am.

Petras Surna: I thought you might be.

Alzay Calhoun: I am. I am. I am. I am.

Petras Surna: I wish I was religious.

Alzay Calhoun: I hear you. I hear you. I hear you.

Petras Surna: I used to be when I grew up, but religion here is almost scorned and mocked in Australia. But in America, it's a big part of culture. It controls a lot of politics.

Alzay Calhoun: I used to be when I grew up, but religion here is almost scorned and mocked in Australia. But in America, it's a big part of culture. It controls a lot of politics.

Alzay Calhoun: We spend so much time with our face planted inside of our business, we can't see straight. You'd rather be somewhere else. You'd rather ... Anything. You just said, you enjoy being outdoors, rock climbing, hiking, etc. Let's not let the business conflict with what actually fuels us, what makes us happy. How do we design something different? Then the program is designed in that spirit.

Alzay Calhoun: Spending time in your spiritual or religious pursuits is one of those things that you may want to spend your time doing. The value of that, at this moment, up to you, you personally and whoever else, you know what I mean? But that's the idea, aren't there other things you'd rather do besides just stare at your computer all day long? What are those things.

Petras Surna: I actually like staring at my computer. I just wanted to get more clients.

Alzay Calhoun: Fair enough. Fair enough. Being paid to stare at your computer.

Petras Surna: It's also a hobby. My job is also a hobby. It's a bit sad really. I don't know.

Alzay Calhoun: There's nothing wrong with enjoying what you do, but there is the admission, I do all this work. Then how do we do more of it?

Petras Surna: That's it. That's all I want. I want to be good at what I do. I want clients, and that's it.

Petras Surna: It's also helped me get clients in fields that aren't related to e-Commerce. The startup, come to me. I created the startup process because it's another thing I could've said, "We do this," but I just didn't want that much work and yeah, I don't know. But bang, landed me a client by creating another set of milestones.

Alzay Calhoun: That's right.

Petras Surna: That milestone thing, rather than proposals, oh my God, I hate proposals. That was another huge thing.

Petras Surna: Unfortunately, I'm going to be forced into a proposal on Friday because I'm going to a designer who's going to tell me I have to do it no matter what I say to her, but proposals make me sick.

Alzay Calhoun: Way to transition. The more you adapt and get better at this productized thinking, the fewer and fewer of those you have to do. But right, proposals, it's just been spinning your wheels. It is professional paper pushing. In nine out of 10 scenarios, every now and again, it's worth doubling down and doing the proposal. But in most scenarios, it's just professional paper pushing. It's just us, sending emails back and forth. There's a better way of doing it, which you're very well aware and it becomes easier.

Alzay Calhoun: Petras, before we jump off this line though, there is something I wanted to ask you about specifically to see how you feel about it, because you made a very particular observation or statement really early in the program. What you confessed on that certain day was you said, "This program is not what I thought it would be." I asked you to please define that, "What do you mean?" You said, "I thought you were going to be more prescriptive." That was your word, "I thought you're going to be more prescriptive and you were asking me to be more thoughtful." Do you remember having that interaction?

Petras Surna: Yeah.

Alzay Calhoun: Let me make sure I get my question right I want to ask... Tell me about the difference. Now that you've seen the program and how it's laid out, why is it important not to be prescriptive? Why is it valuable to ask you to think through these problems, versus just telling you what to say and what to do at every single turn?

Petras Surna: Because the thought process is ... Well, it's hard to know. But if you just told me what to do, whenever you figure out something for yourself and you put in that mental effort, psychologically you just believe it more, don't you? You just trust it. I don't. It's something to do with psychology. I can't describe it. I don't know. But when you're forced to work it out, and do it yourself, and do the hard work, you uncover things. You go, "Oh, I see the value in this." I don't know. I can't put words on it. But if you just said, "Do this," without a thought, I think it's very weak. It'll drift around for a bit and then it'll just leave you. It won't be embedded. It won't become embedded. You have to work it out yourself.

Petras Surna: I said prescriptive because I thought you'd be like other coaches, "Do this, do that, do this." It was more like, "No, that's not a client problem you're solving. I'm sorry that's not ... Go away, little boy and find the actual problem. That's not a problem for these reasons. Now off you go." I'm going, "What the hell? Oh, hold on, what's the problem?"

Petras Surna: Then I rang some of my friends to go, "Is this a problem?" They go, "That one is, but the second one isn't." I go, "Yeah, I didn't think it was. No, it isn't." It's like anything. If you teach my daughter math and you say, "Here's the solution," it's pointless. She's not going to learn. You have to say, "Think about it." Maybe give her a little hint, "Try this. I'm going to show you how to do it." It's like any sort of learning, isn't it? It's like programming. She can watch videos on programming until the cows come home and you won't know how to do one single thing.

Alzay Calhoun: Right. That's right.

Petras Surna: It's learning. It's just that's how you learn. You have to do it yourself, solve problems, go through the pain.

Alzay Calhoun: That's right. That's right. That's right. I liked the word weak. You used the word "weak". What I'm very aware of as the business coach in this situation, is if I "told you what to do", you would walk into a client interaction with this robotic phrasing, with robotic templates that this coaching program told you to use. You'd walk into that interaction with a client and just get beat up. You get beat up, you get kicked out. It'd be a horrible interaction for both parties. Then you conclude with it doesn't work. Nobody win in that scenario. What I know is at the end of the day, you, Petras, have to go interact with the client and be live, be active. You can't be weak, you got to be strong. How do we get the muscles right, so when you interact with the client, you could actually have the right kind of interaction, whether it's a sales interaction or a service interaction?

Alzay Calhoun: No, on purpose we don't offer these prescriptive, "Just say this, just do this," because those things don't actually apply with other human beings. Human beings don't respond to rote scripts. We have some guidance, absolutely. At the end of the day, it's a human. You're a human, talk to another human. We have to practice that way in the coaching program so we can perform that way.

Petras Surna: You have to go through that and I could see why you do that now.

Alzay Calhoun: Final point on that, because this is your business, you're the driver of this business. If you've got a bad thought or a broken thought, you will put it or keep it in your business. That bad or broken thought will play itself out in client acquisition, it will play itself out in client service, it will play itself out in client retention. Nobody gets benefit from that. You're too important, Petras, to your own business. You're way too important. You're the leader.

Alzay Calhoun: If you've got good clean thoughts, great, now your business going to have good clean thoughts. Your clients can receive good clean thoughts. That's a good deal. But if we leave those ideas broken because you followed a script, "Don't think, just do this." Well yeah, right. You've been there, done that. It just doesn't play out the way you want. Good. Good.

Alzay Calhoun: Thank you, Petras. Thank you, sir, for your willingness to have this conversation. This is the stuff that makes the coaching program better. We're going to conclude this part. We'll hang on for a minute and we'll talk a bit offline, but thank you, sir, for your time.

Petras Surna: Okay, no worries.