Benjamin Beck Real World Content Strategy and Link Building

Alzay Calhoun: Hey everybody. It is Alzay Calhoun with CovetedConsultant.com, and today I'm here with Benjamin Beck, who is from BenjaminBeck.com. We were just having a really cool conversation offline. I'm hoping to bring it online in the podcast today. Specifically, we were talking about making database content decisions, and how you can promote content organically. The best practices around doing that. Looking forward to having good conversation. Looking forward to having some fun with it. But first, let me just say hello to Benjamin. Hey Benjamin, how are you today?

Benjamin Beck: Doing fine. Thanks for having me on.

Alzay Calhoun: Yes, sir. Good to have you. Before we get into the good stuff, just, kind of, set us up with some context. Where or when or how did the light bulb go off for you that content was important, and story telling through content is important?

Benjamin Beck: Yeah, great question. I would have to say that when I was working at an agency called Seer Interactive ... Awesome agency. They build links, like ... And they have great campaigns. What I realized, most of the clients that I was working with had been with the agency for 4 or 5 years, because they do such a great job. At that point, we, kind of, exhausted all of the easy wins to help build authority to their website, and now we need to get into creating content. I noticed that just doing cheap content didn't get us very far, and then Will Reynolds, the CO, they've actually built out a piece of content.

I think it's Joe Ranks. It's like, "How does Facebook make money?" Or, "How do all these different companies make money?" You go there, and you click on it, and it shows you all these different companies that make money in different ways. That got us so many links, and so I was like, "Wow." That, kind of, puts two and two together that creating the right content goes way further than just turning our wheels, and, kind of, doing this kind of hamster wheel, just writing blog posts, I guess.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: That really helped me understand the importance and the value that good content can bring to a company where it changes the trajectory.

Alzay Calhoun: In that short story, you just said, "We, kind of, did the easy win." I'm sure there's a list there, who heard that, so let's ... Can you, kind of, outline very quickly what some of those easy wins are in this content promotion process?

Benjamin Beck: Yeah, definitely. When I was talking about easy wins, I was talking about building links or building authority to a website.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: I could spend a whole hour on that. I actually have a course, or a free class. Anybody can sign up for what's called LinkBuildingClass.com, where you get a weekly email with a whole bunch of tips and Sebesta strategies from really, really big experts like BackLinko, or Greenland STR, just a lot of really great agencies that give you Sebesta agencies.

That's what I was talking about. When clients came on, they'd been with us for 4 or 5 years, we had gone through a lot of those strategies to build authority. Getting vendors to link to us as one of the people that sell our product. Like, those are easy ways to get links without building much content.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: Then, we had to start figuring out ways to build content that had an audience, or had people that would want promoted for us. That took time to start figuring that out.

Alzay Calhoun: Got you, got you. Okay, so then, now we've done the quote-unquote "easy stuff," and now it's time to do the hard stuff. When it's time for us ... By hard stuff, what I mean is, now we realize that we must create unique content as a company. We have to now create content that we own, that we have developed, that we're proud of, etc.

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun: You were just talking to me offline about producing the right kind of content. There's a miss. There's, kind of, a typical way folks go about doing it, and then there's a better way. Can you reprise that, please?

Benjamin Beck: Yeah, absolutely. In being a consultant for many years now, and being at an agency, and then going in-house [inaudible 00:04:16] company, and working with lots of start-ups. You run into, kind of, the same line of thinking where people think they know what content their audience wants. A lot of people, they go from the gut with their content strategy, and what I found is that that usually doesn't play well. When it comes to what you're talking about, like, we know we need to make content, but what content do we need to make.

I approach it from, what we talked about earlier, a database decision-making model. What I do is I go, and I look for 3 things before I make any content. The first is I look for demand, so I go into the Google AdWords planner, and I take all these ideas, and put them in there. I see if there's anyone searching for the content we're going to make. Is there demand? If there's demand, and then if there is demand, I go and see who else has created content similar. If it's really, really great, it's like, "Okay, now I have to make something even better than that."

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: The third thing I do is I go to use a tool like BuzzSumo, or Ahrefs. I'll type in, kind of, the subject I'm looking for. If it's cyber security, I'll type it in there, and those tools will show me articles that have been written in the last year, and how many social shares they get, how many links they have, and that's social proof to me that, "Okay, this has been written about. People were interested in it. It gets a lot of shares. Also, by looking at that, I now have a hit list.

If I'm going to write about, say, cyber security, I now have a list of authors and websites who have written about it, that have gotten a lot of social share, that if I go with them ... Not the same article, but maybe a different spin.

It's easier to pitch them, because a.) there's demand for this type of content, and b.) they've had success with it in the past. Targeting those same authors and websites again, it's a lot easier to get my content placed. That's all the research that I do before we even start writing any content, because me going to a client, it's really hard for them to swallow that I need them to put all this energy and resources into creating content, and then it doesn't go anywhere.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: If I approach them, and I'm like, "Hey, I still know 100% that this is going to be a success, but here's the organic demand that we'll probably capture." Here are the places that have published it in the past, and here are the authors that are writing about it that, I think, we should build a relationship with. Going with that is just so much better than just, kind of, throwing darts at the wall, and going from the gut. That's what I do with all of my clients.

Alzay Calhoun: It is unfortunate how many companies commit to a content calendar that is based on their gut.

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun: They're creating content once a week, daily, or whatever they're calender says. But they didn't do what you just described.

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun: As elementary as that may sound, or as beginner as it may sound, "Hey, do your research first." Actually, let's ask this question. How long does it ... If we're going to create one piece of content, one piece of really good content, right?

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun:  Stand-out content.

Benjamin Beck:  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun:  The process you just talked about, how long does it take to do that? Is that 30 seconds, 30 minutes, 30 days? Generally.

Benjamin Beck: It takes me a couple of weeks to do that type of audit, but usually through that, you find lots of these little gold nuggets that you want to ...

Alzay Calhoun:  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: Kind of, build it up into, kind of, a bigger content strategy. That's the other thing with content strategy that I look for, it's not just the one article. It's, kind of, like, the campaign that you're building out.

Alzay Calhoun:  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: I do that quite a bit, what I call the hub spoke, where you have the hub ...

Alzay Calhoun:  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: Saying it's, like, this is the one page that's, kind of like, the go-to, and then on that page, it would link out to the smaller articles, or the step-by-step article that you ... Your team was writing about. That's usually the road map that I give a client is like, this is the big concept we're going after, here is the smaller pieces, and this is like, what you're talking about, the content calender of how we should go about writing each of those pieces.

Alzay Calhoun: I knew that was hidden under that answer.

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun: I just wanted to, kind of, stir up the point that it takes some time to do the research, but doing the research unfolds your calender.

Benjamin Beck: Right.

Alzay Calhoun: If you do the right kind of research, it will show you multiple pieces of content to write about.

Benjamin Beck: Right.

Alzay Calhoun: We're not just creating one piece of content. That's like, kind of, the home run theory, right? We'll swing one time, we'll hit it over the fence, and we'll be heroes.

Benjamin Beck: Right.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah, maybe. Or maybe we got to, kind of, commit to a longer term plan.

Benjamin Beck: Right. Or strike out, right?

Alzay Calhoun: Or strike out, right? Because we didn't plan appropriately. Okay. That gives us some fundamentals for where we get some good data to help us create the kind of content folks want to actually consume.

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun: All right, all right. Now ... You've got expertise here, so I'm excited to ask you this question.

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative)?

Alzay Calhoun: The assumption is that, if I make the great content, that it will automatically suck in all these new prospects, and leads, and customers, and that it'll be phenomenal. The reality, at least in today's marketplace, is that's just not true. Especially through the search engines, if that is how you think about ... If that's the way you're going to think about attracting new attention. Help us think through that, Benjamin. How ... What is the appropriate ways to think about content promotion in today's marketplace?

Benjamin Beck: Great question, and yeah. My background is in seo. It's kind of painful that I always think about [inaudible 00:10:27] versus leads, but I'm getting more and more into the leads now, but yeah. To get organic traffic, you need to build authority to wherever you have. That comes through promotion. Even if you do the research, and you build out this great content, if there's no promotion strategy, it's kind of like, the publish and pray, and ...

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: Everything's going to work out. From what I've seen, that doesn't usually work out. There needs to be a promotion plan.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: That's where the research comes in, like what we were talking about earlier, it comes into effect is knowing who to pitch, like, what websites and what journalists, and how to pitch them. Again, if they had gotten a lot of traffic and shares before, they're more likely to do it again. Reaching out to them ahead of time, and getting buy-in on the content, is a huge win, because now they feel like they're contributing to it, and doing those type of things to do that.

Also, another thing that people don't usually think about in promotion is having a list of round-ups in your niche. If you're an entrepreneur, or start-up, there's tons of start-up round-ups of the top start-up articles of the week, or the top RIS articles of the week. Having a list of those things as well, so as soon as you promote it, you have a list of people that will easily talk about, reference what you're talking about. Building that out into that calender is also a huge bonus, to get people to see it, read it, and come back to your source.

If you get that authority, and people linking back to it, then that will also get you the additional benefit of organic rankings in traffic.

Alzay Calhoun: Okay. All right, now you just said, "I had to pitch content." I had to first get my head around creating my own content in the first place ...

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun: You told me I had to do some research to figure out which content to create. Okay, I can kind of buy into that, but I thought that once I published it, I was going to be okay.

Benjamin Beck: Right.

Alzay Calhoun: You just told me I have to pitch it, right?

Benjamin Beck: Right.

Alzay Calhoun: I have enough challenges just trying to close clients in my business as is, now I'm pitching ... Not services. I'm pitching content?

Benjamin Beck: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Alzay Calhoun: Why is pitching important? Why should I even do this pitching thing?

Benjamin Beck: Yeah, because ... For most businesses, they don't have relationships with news articles, or anything else like that. People look at, say, Apple, right? They tweet out something, and it covered in Mashable, New York Times. They get all this coverage.

Alzay Calhoun: Right.

Benjamin Beck: Businesses are like, "Oh, if I just tweet something, like, of course I'm going to get crazy coverage." But that's just not how it works. You have to build up those relationships with those people to get coverage. One strategy that I learned from Larry Kim at WordStream, it's in that link building class, that I thought was really interesting is, you can actually build out a list of journalists on Twitter and Facebook where they live, especially Twitter. When you put out a post, you put $20 in, like, Twitter ads ...

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: ... That target that list of journalists ...

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: So then they're seeing your post.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: Then, they're more likely to click on it, and cover it, which I think is genius.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: That's kind of like a short way to do it. You can ...

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: ... Build out the list from your research, and target them with ads. That's one way to do it, to get more coverage, but I've found the best way is to engage with them. Comment on a recent article they had, reach out to them on Twitter, and when they show interest back, and you saying, "Oh, yeah, like, what are you covering?" Then, that opens the door to introduce it.

Alzay Calhoun: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Benjamin Beck: But, yeah. There's this big fallacy that if I publish it, I will get tons of coverage. But the problem is that, there's more content being created every day now than, like ... It would take decades, in the previous generation.

Alzay Calhoun: Right.

Benjamin Beck: Journalists ... They're over in a day with so much content that you have to get their attention. The publishing [inaudible 00:14:52], you might get coverage, depending how great it is. That's very true, but with all of my clients, the real success comes into proactively interacting and pitching people to get their attention.

Alzay Calhoun: You made the point about Apple just then. You said, "Apple can tweet something, and it gets major press coverage."

What sometimes goes unseen is Apple is in the business of creating those relationships. Every time Apple releases something new, there's this whole, I'll call it a "romancing period," of the press prior to the release of that new thing. Then the thing is released, then it is covered. What we're trying to do in this conversation is show you some of that behind the scenes work. Some of that romancing work ...

... That typically isn't discussed, but we only see the fruit of it. We just see what happens at the end, but there's very real work that went into making sure that what they released was well-received amongst the appropriate people. Okay.

Then, if that's the pitching thing, and I kind of submit to, "Okay, I've got to pitch it to people," then those relationships ... All right, cool. But then, you introduce this idea of round-ups. If I'm an expert, right? My company has expertise, what interest would I have in putting other experts on my site, on in my world, because this is my world, right? I'm the expert. We're the experts here.

What's the value of having ... Of doing round-ups, then?

Benjamin Beck: Yeah, so when I was talking about doing round-ups, I was saying that you can submit your content to round-ups.

Not so much that you need to create your own round-ups. That is a great way to build relationships on your own platform, in your own world, right?

You can build relationships by doing round-ups. It's a great way to build that relationship. "Hey, I featured you on my round-up." That's a great way to build relationships. But what I was saying, that's a great way to actually promote your content, is to approach round-ups, and say, "Hey, you cover on a weekly basis the top, whatever their emphasis is ..."

"... and I just created this really great piece of content about that. I think your ears would be interested. Would you mind checking it out?" That's more of the round-up style that I was talking about for promotion.

Approach them, because there are round-ups for everything I'm finding.

It's amazing, and just finding those Facebook groups, those LinkedIn groups, those ... All these little niches that you can promote your content to in a non-spam-y way, right? You want to add value. You want to make sure that you're going into these places, in these niches, and adding value to them. By doing that, that's a great way to be able to promote your content, and get more people to see it. Then, hopefully that leads to more leads, more calls, more sales, and everything else that comes from that promotion.

Alzay Calhoun: Very good. Let's move it into some application. Let's think about how this may work in some real-life situations. Offline, you were telling me a story about this auto dealer that ... No, no, no. It was a software company that sold software to auto dealerships.

They were going to create content, so they got to the point where they realized they had to create content. But then, dot dot dot. Please, tell us that story.

Benjamin Beck: Yeah, real briefly. Great company. They create software for auto dealers, and more specifically, so that an auto dealer can sell to the Spanish market. Most auto dealers aren't fluent in Spanish, or aren't set up to sell to the Spanish market, which is a huge market. What their software did is, when cars come in, they can quickly take that inventory, and put it into a Spanish website that sells Spanish speakers.

Which ... Huge need, awesome. The problem is, there was not very much content, and there wasn't anybody searching for it. There was no demand, so I went to my research part of it. Their idea was, "We'll create content that will get people to read the article. When they read the article, they will then click on our website. When they go to our website, they will then click on a demo." There are so many steps ...

Benjamin Beck: ... To getting that lead, which was our goal. On top of that, that is only if we got published.

Even if we got published, and we got all this support of their website, there was no organic demand.

Benjamin Beck: On both fronts, there wasn't many people looking for what they were ... It was hard to get content to get published, and then 2. There wasn't very much organic demand. We just had to come up with a more direct sales approach, where it's more getting auto dealers on the phone.

They can demo it, and then show the value. That was more the course of action that we decided to take with them, and going away from content, because in that instance, they're very new, and the market doesn't know it yet. What they ...

They're more focused on getting customers versus just building content, and basically trying to build out the niche from scratch.

That's what we decided that content organic, it wasn't there yet, and the research showed that. Instead of spinning our wheels, and spending all the resources doing that, they're now reallocating those resources to sales and more direct approach to getting customers.

Alzay Calhoun: Very good. If they followed the model of research ... They did, because you were helping them.

But if they followed the amount of research, they would've learned pretty quickly that there isn't a whole lot of existing content around this topic, right?

Very good. Solid. Here's a question. Right, and I'm thinking about the people listening. Who does this work? The companies themselves is an expert at what they do, right?

They sell it how they sell it. Now, we're introducing some new disciplines here. Creating content, promoting content, building links, pitching to outlets, finding round-ups. Look, Benjamin, I don't have anybody in my company that specializes in any of this.

We don't do any of this.

Help us take some next steps in how we can begin to get some aptitude and some results from this work.

Benjamin Beck: Great question, and yeah. It's really interesting, because I've worked on agency in-house. I've worked in so many different places, and yeah. A lot of times, the business is so focused down on exactly what they do that it's hard for them to look outwardly on ... What we ran into. They try to create content that they're really excited about inside the business.

There's no audience yet. There's the 80/20. Well, you could do things that will get you 80% of the benefit ...

... By doing 20% of the work, and so that, for me, is the before we create the content, and the after we create the content. Basically the one thing. The research. By doing the research ... I have a blog post on my blog, BenjaminBeck.com, that outlines how I do this by using one simple tool called BuzzSumo, another one called Ahrefs. Both of these allow you to do that, but following that step-by-step, it shows you how to, basically, research your market.

If your idea has legs. You basically come up with something very generic. Auto Software for Spanish Speakers, or something like that.

Or driver's security, and approaching it that way, you'll very quickly see, "Wow, nobody's writing about this." If nobody's writing about it, it's probably going to be very hard for you to make something so awesome that everybody's going to want to write about it.

Then also, it shows you who's writing about it. Now that you know the journalists, you can see ... You know who to approach after the content's ready, or ideally, as you're making the content approach them.

Then thirdly, who is publishing this? Is it all the round-ups that are publishing this kind of content? Are there lists or other experts that we can bring into this? Again, the research is really, really the ideal thing in that, like you said earlier, it puts everything else into the content calender, and into that road map.

I understand that in the real world, it's hard ... Not every company has somebody full-time has a marketer to come up with this, or a content person.

But I'll definitely leave it in the show notes, kind of my guide on how to do this. It is really simple. If you know basic Excel and you can come up with a couple ideas, it's really easy to do the research to see if there is some potential for this.

Alzay Calhoun: Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, all right. All right, so that is process.

Right? Those are the steps, but you know what, Benjamin? I'm going to push you a little further. I heard your process. Sounds glorious. I do not want to do it.

I don't want to do it, right?

Look, man, I run a company. I don't do content, so do I need to hire a teenager? Do I need to hire a recent grad? Do I need to fuss around with some agencies? Like, just ... Maybe can I just download your sheet, and give it to one of them? Like, what the heck do I do? Because I'm telling you, I don't want to do it.

Benjamin Beck: Okay, yeah. You can definitely do that. You can have a hire. People. There's a lot of great consultants. I'm a consultant. There's a lot of great agencies out there that do that. Where I do see the breakdown with companies that do that, that just hire out everything, is in the creation of the content.

That's what I try to do. When I work with clients, I'm trying to get them and their expertise to write the content. It's really hard for you to outsource somebody to come up with a strategy, write the content, and promote it. That knows your niche as well as you do ...

... And knows your content, and can speak for your company, as if it's you. I like to work closely with them. Coming up with a road map is great, but if you can't execute on it, then that's where things, kind of, fall apart. I definitely would suggest that a company not completely hands off ... Hand it off to somebody, but yeah. Definitely find a consultant, or somebody to work with that can take your message and your ideas, and put them into some type of content that will do well with those people. Everybody has their strengths.

Make sure you find a consultant that's willing to work with you, and to understand it. But I've also worked with businesses, like, I don't care. Fly and die. Just take [inaudible 00:26:40] too well, because they want to see instant results.

Benjamin Beck: They don't realize that content is the long-term gain.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah.

Benjamin Beck: Where ... I've done lead magnets or content that continue to get 20-30 emails a month, which then turn into 1 or 2 clients every 6 months, right?

Alzay Calhoun: Right.

Benjamin Beck: That's a continually added value that you can't measure in a single month. People that turn their blind eye and aren't involved, they just, kind of, want to look at the bottom line. Each month, I give you this much money. I want to see these types of results. Those types of clients, I usually steer them towards Facebook ads or PPC, because ...

Alzay Calhoun: Right.

Benjamin Beck: That's what they're looking for, and that's the best way to deliver it.

Alzay Calhoun: Right, right. That's right.

Benjamin Beck: But if somebody understands the value of content, another great example is Client Boost. They're a PPC agency. The CEO I'm close friends with, he doesn't even do PPC form stuff very much anymore. Most of his leads are coming from inbound channels through content, because they made that investment.

It's like, that's all I'm investing in now, because that's what's filling up our funnel. He gets it, and he understands it, and we're going to be working on some projects together, possibly, in the future. Because he wants more of that, because if he's the long-term value of that. If you find people like that, that understand the long-term value, then you work together to build that content. I can do a lot of the heavy lifting. I can do the research, I can do the writing, I can do the promotion, but I still want to check in with the person to make sure we're on the same page.

You really don't want to just hand off your content strategies to somebody, to a teenager who doesn't know what they're doing. There are some teenagers that are amazing marketers in this day in age, which is blowing my mind. But, yeah, you don't want to hand off the voice of your company to somebody else. You want to actively be involved.

Alzay Calhoun: Thank you for saying that. [Crosstalk 00:28:41] I agree. Yeah, I agree with that entire perspective. It deserves to be repeated. Outsourcing is one thing, advocating is something different.

If you need some help, get some help. But you just said it. You, as the leader, are the voice of the company, and you just can't outsource that. That can't be done. There is some level of investment that the business owner has to have, and relieving yourself of that core investment is not to your advantage. At some point, you end up paying for it, one way or another.

Thank you for saying that. Not only do I agree, I think it's a fundamental principle in what makes content work.

That it's authentic to the organization. Wonderful. Okay, so Benjamin, tell us about what you've got going on in your business. Are there any big projects coming up? Any world-changing things you're working on. Tell me what's happening in your world.

Benjamin Beck: I wish I was changing the world. War, but I've creating the craft and link building class. I've gotten amazing feedback from that. It's completely free, and actually when you do sign up, you get a bunch of extended trials for some of the best software out there.

With Ahref, like I mentioned, BuzzSumo. Even if you're thinking about doing some content strategy, go sign up for the class. You get, I think, it's 2 months of [inaudible 00:30:06] for free.

Benjamin Beck: When is, like, $200 on that. I've created that, got some really good feedback. The response I've been hearing from that though is people are like, "I love these strategies. These are awesome, but I don't know how to find these opportunities. Like, I should find more round-ups. That's what I should do, but how do I find them? Then, what do I email them exactly?"

I'm working on right now, coming up with a page course, a premium course that actually shows you how to find opportunities for each of these strategies. Then also, the exact template that I use to quickly get responses, and then also, build those relationships.

Got to build those links. I'm focusing on that, and then after that, hopefully I can start making more of a course with these content strategies ideas. Because that's what I do really well, is coming up with content strategies that scale for companies.

Benjamin Beck: Like, creating badges that scale, or coming up with ... What are they called? Like, awards, right? Like, coming up with different things. Or the hub spoke thing that we talked about.

Alzay Calhoun: Yeah.

Benjamin Beck: Coming up with those content road maps that I can, basically, give to a company, and now they have a trajectory, or a direction to go in. Also, these are the people you need to build relationships with and, kind of, set them on their way.

I know how to do that well, but I haven't put it into a course yet. Maybe here soon I'll ... Next time I can come on, and we'll talk about that. About how the course is put together to make more scalable content strategies, and tell people stories in a more scalable way.

Alzay Calhoun: Excellent, so if people have liked what they've heard from you, and they want to connect with you, what's the best way to do that?

Benjamin Beck: Yeah, BenjaminBeck.com is a great way to connect to me. I have a newsletter that you can sign up for, where I'm ... All of my projects, and everything that I'm working on. I give updates, and like, what's working, what's not. Client case studies I've put through there. If you have questions for me directly, Twitter is great. Ben_Beck on Twitter. I'm really active on there. Just shoot me a tweet, and I'm more then happy to jump on there, so yeah.

Alzay Calhoun: Very good, very good. Well, Benjamin, look. Really appreciate your time today, and your just sharing your projects and insight with us.

We've done well today. I won't hold you any further. Best of luck going forward.

Benjamin Beck: Thank you so much.